This is giving me ptsd flashbacks to ti4 format where upper bracket played day 1 then didn't play for like 4 days so we watched 4 days of games for one place.
However this major format is somehow worse
That format was bizarre
2 of the top 3 teams were decided day 1 IIRC
this format is extremely depressing for teams who had to watch their opponents play in the street while they were grounded for doing too well
momentum plays a huge factor in this and the teams who didn't get to play any officials before playoffs were more likely to lose
on top of that having a loser interview is brutal punishment, the aster manager was about to cry the entire time
Aster interview was really brutal, he said that they didn't win a single scrim. That was tbeir reason for their loss, they never seemed to adapt
The playoff seeds didn't have any time to figure out and practice the international meta. In comparison to the group stage and wildcard teams, they are at a massive disadvantage. It almost feels like the teams are being punished for placing top in their regions. It's not a surprise that all the playoff seeds lost to teams that played 14-24 games already and figured out a lot more about the meta. They lost because of lack of warmup and momentum, not because they don't deserve the spot.
I think there's a lot of recency bias going on with the discussion around playoff seeded teams. This tournament they have mostly performed pretty poorly but that was simply not the case last tournament.
Remember that both of the grand finalists and 3 of the top 4 teams at the last major were playoff seeded teams.
It may not be the right system but people are forgetting that the exact opposite result happened last major with the exact same system.
Do you think that in every region the 1st place team was coincidentally much worse than the 2 or 3 place teams?
It seems much more likely to me that the teams with no main stage practice with the new meta which has just formed during this tournament aren’t sure what to draft or get run over by teams using the top tier strats.
Either way I agree the straight to playoffs thing is terrible.
“It seems much more likely … no main stage practice with the new meta … aren’t sure what to draft … run over by teams using the top tier strats”
100% this. You see it in other sports all the time. Giving top seeds a bye or a “rest week” or whatever equivalent, is only an advantage if they are playing a physically demanding game/sport and need time to recover. The flip-side is that it always introduces some rust.
In DoTA this is extra bad because rest is not particularly useful (not physically demanding at all), the meta development and opportunities to practice are huge, and momentum is huge.
The current major system actively disadvantages the top seeds. Sure, they can set up their own scrims while travelling and settling in to a foreign country…. But it makes way more sense to, as was suggested above, just have these top seeds play mini groups to determine the initial upper bracket matchups. This can be done off stream if need be, idc. They need a chance to feel out the competition and explore the evolving meta though.
its only a problem when it doesnt work. last major it helped EG and IG like crazy
I think more than anything its just more volatile. You can win a couple bo3's and suddenly be in grand finals. Or you can look a bit shaky, lose 2 bo3's and be out of the tournament completely.
The teams in wild cars and group stage while having best of 2s just have a lot more games so there is less volatility
And don't put the two group teams into the same side of the upper brackets. LGD vs. Nigma shouldn't happen unless it's the UB finals.
im relatively sure that those were all random? could be wrong. i'm more upset about the QCcrew vs Noping, into loser of that game plays EG.
If NoPing loses they basically wouldn't have played any real international teams. They play against NA players in pubs all day kind of annoying that they could go to an international LAN and not actually play international teams.
I feel like they got rusty while waiting for the group stage to be done. I just hope they don't follow this format for TI because I can't endure watching these games. They all look nervous and stiff, the group stage matches were supposed to be the ice breaker and make them adapt to LAN matches
I don't agree that some of these teams don't belong in the upper bracket but more like the Major format screwed the teams that had finished first in their regional qualifier. They get good progress on directly qualifying for TI10 but they really are not set up to do well in the Major.
Not playing any games on Major settings and going straight into playoffs against teams that played the wild card or group stage is outright mind-boggling.
For example, Virtus Pro finished first in both regional qualifier but have to play PSG.LGD and Nigma for their first series? Like wtf? Both PSG.LGD and Nigma played in both wild card and group stage and finished top 2 both times before entering the upper bracket. They had crazy momentum going in against a team with 0 games played yet in official Major setting. VP lost both series and while some might say Virtus Pro underperformed, I'll say they simply have the odds against them going into their first series. Momentum is an important part of Lan.
I agree with you, but PSG.LGD didn't play Wildcards, Vici Gaming did.
reminder last major 3/4 direct playoff teams won upper bracket
these dpc seasons dont have nearly enough games to accurately rank the teams from each region. literally only play 1 series against each team. it's really stupid to put the no.1 dpc team straight into the upper bracket with such a small sample size. so crazy that 4 out of the 6 """top""" teams have bombed straight out of the tournament. i don't see whats so wrong about just putting the top 2 teams from each region into the groups stage. do they just not want as many group stage games or something??
I was about say, "Hey, there is Quincy Crew went straight to UB and they are still in." But that's because they fought another straight to UB team in a terrible showing.
>OBVIOUSLY don't belong in the upper bracket.
Not that obvious imo..
The difference between the teams in terms of skills is quite less. Having more actual match practice and experiencing the meta first hand gave teams an actual advantage that made the upper bracket teams look bad..
I agree that the format is bad, but not because of what you say. On the contrary I say that it's unfair for the best teams to have the disadvantage of not playing in the group stage. Of course the teams that played in the group stage are going to beat all of the upper bracket teams. It's extremely unfair.
I love how you phrased it with certainty that all group stage teams will defeat the upper bracket teams in this format when last major that was hardly the case.
While I tend to agree that there is an advantage for the teams who already played the group stage in terms of momentum, they still had time to prepare. Whether it is by scrimming or studying how their competitors play the new meta.
Still, the format could be better but i don't think it caused the lackluster performance we see from these upper bracket teams.
Im sure all of the UB teams that underperformed would be much much better had they played some sort of group stage first as well. Momentum is a huge factor in life in general, let alone competitive scenarios
it's not they ain't belong to upper bracket, it's that they had enough DPC points for direct invite to TI.
I was critical of this format when Fnatic bombed out last major as it wasn't too obvious this system was flawed. It's not a coincidence all regional winners are playing so underwhelming this time around. Dissapointed for the teams involved and especially fans watching such below par performance from them. We all know they can play better better than this.
When tournaments like this develop a meta throughout 50+ games in the wildcard/group stages, I feel like it offers a huge advantage to the teams that have been playing from the beginning.
Yes they have to win to get through but they can get used to the meta and adapt their own game to fit it. You could see the teams in the knockout phase had no idea what to pick or what to do.
T1 played clean and outplayed Aster. (I know Aster also did not play in Group stages) It is the fault of the teams not to make good use of the preparation time.
But I do think it is weird that Group Stage is onyl 1 big group and is basically the same as Wildcard.
Main reason this time the seeded playoff teams were worse :
- lack of matches and momentum
- 3 of them were already qualified for TI, while all 3 opponents of these teams had a lot to fight for. they just wanted it more for obvious reasons.
- they were just the better team
Probably a bit of all these points
Holy shit QC is gonna get top 3 playing 5-6 games vs 2 weak teams lol
I agree. I'm a big NoPing fan and what, they might get eliminated after just playing 2 series at major?? Like what? I really wish we got to see more of them.
And not even just that, these teams miss valuable matches learning from playing other teams ...
Seems almost teams should aim for 2nd place in league so they can get to play in group stage and get valuable meta knowledge.
I want to upvote you for complaining about the current format, but your proposed solution sucks, so…
All regional leagues should just be for a place at the major.
From there it should be a dogfight like TI to see who is the best, whether it's the swiss system or groups.
Man i swear aster are a very good team, monet didnt perform today but hes been a very reliable high impact carry the entire DPC season. Makes me sad to think of how well hes played throughout the season but how mediocre hes been in this tournament.
It's a shame this format isn't that engaging for the upper bracket teams as weplay have been knocking it out of the park in most aspects this major.
LMAO why is this opinion not pop up when IG/EG: The top 2 teams regional in last major are top 1 and 2 ???
It just showed how bad people are judging things. This is just the 2nd major with this format. This is a sample size of 2, and people rushed into this conclusion ?
I hate the point distribution, but I don't think this format is bad. The points in region should be less, but if the format got changed TOGETHER with it to put top regional team in harder spot, I don't think it is good.
Give teams that win their region an extra series or two worth of wins in the group stages. They still have to play them, yet they still have a decent advantage for good seeding. And if they are going to bomb out, they at least played everyone and proved that they were going to bomb out no matter what.
It's just insane to think that VP had to face against the team had already played 24 games in the tournament before while they hadn't played even once.
It's simple. You have one big round robin with all the qualified teams. Then playoffs after. What you did in the qualifiers doesn't mean shit - you need to prove yourself at the event itself.
the whole system is a freaking joke. way too much focus on the leagues.
alliance won exactly 0 offline games in both majors, but got 1st and 2nd in regional league and get a TI slot for it
meanwhile nigma got 3rd and 4th at league and now had to top 2 the wildcards, top 2 the groupstages and get 2nd in the major overall to qualify.
what a fucking joke this is.
with their lan performances, beastcoast/VP/alliance have no buisness qualifiying for TI directly.
I was watching Beastcoast Tusk cast shards and snowballs. Almost every cast was bad with tricks watched on yt. Snowball saved no one, shards did not deposition Tusk. So painful to see this team is in major and not euro stacks. Only wisper was playing a tier 1 game in the team.
It's not that they don't belong, they are literally getting griefed by not getting to practice the patch.
It also sucks to not be able to see the best teams play more than this.
I don't think it's fair to say they don't belong in the upper bracket, it's just that they haven't played the tournament meta like the other teams. I think QC and NoPing are the only two teams that are actually worse. VP and Alliance got to play Nigma and LGD, the meta dominators of the tournament, both coming in with a huge confidence boost and relevant experience.
THAT BEING SAID, I completely agree on sending those teams to group stage, either the main one with an advantage, or a separate one like you suggested. Just a shitty format overall. Also the round roubin group format creates meaningless games.
I said this even before the UB: [https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/nurlqy/next\_season\_the\_league\_winner\_should\_not\_be\_put/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/nurlqy/next_season_the_league_winner_should_not_be_put/)
Seems like this is just confirming that putting teams straight to UB is a terrible format.
4/6 Playoff seeds straight out eliminated already. They didn't even win one series yet!
Remove the playoffs seeds. Also please reduce the DPC point distribution. Regional Leagues shouldn't have as much points as International Lans.
Sorry, but teams like Alliance, VP, Aster, BeastCoast shouldn't be directly invited to TI given their horrible performances in Majors.
I've yet to see any one who enjoys this format. Really baffling how this format could even be conceived.
If that was the case, the DPC regional leagues would be far less hyped. This format is great.
I agree, i favour consistency over performance in a single run in major..
Yup, the games have been the only disappointing thing about this major, bo2 groups with almost all draws makes the games feel unimportant. This year's dpc qualifications are awful, we end up with a tournament where games feel mismatched and unimportant until deep into the finals. Getting top8 in a major tournament because of how you played online 6months ago, when another team performed better in groups but didn't make it, makes 0 sense. Every team should have to earn their tournament placement AT the tournament.
> bo2 groups with almost all draws makes the games feel unimportant
This is complete nonsense btw. BO2's actually make every game important.
Suggestion: Don't EVER jump to conclusions after a single competition.
More seriously, can you guys take a second to breath and take a look at how the first major went ? Every top regional seed performed well, most won their games only to fall while facing either other top seeds from other regions or top chinese teams like LGD.
JUST FUCKING STOP JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS AFTER A WEEK AND A HALF OF DOTES YOU GODDAMN BABOONS. PLEASE.
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« DONT EVER DO THAT AGAIN »
Worst tournament format I've ever seen. Playing groups obviously gives a huge advantage allowing teams to get used to the meta.
Yet 3 of the top 4 from Singapore were upper bracket seeds.
True, watching that **clownfest** series of top 1 **NA** vs top 1 **SA** is so fucking pain that I just turned off the stream instead of waiting
Sucks that **Miracle** experienced an unfortunate food poisoning, resulting the **VP vs Nigma** series getting postponed
Aww it’s gonna be ok 🥴
The salt is strong with this one
Where is the salt? it doesn't matter which teams that go to UB but overall this year's format looks bad and needs improvement in the long run or next season. The OP has points that placement in UB teams can actually be a disadvantageous, as teams in GS have played more games to get the grasp of tournament meta.
All these excuses are simply hilarious. Hard truth is that these are not upper bracket teams and of course wildcards and group stage matches looked so much better when so many potential TI winning contenders played there. But don't worry, you'll see most of these in TI group stages. Enjoy. Maybe one will fluke the upper bracket placement and then drop back down cause that's their ceiling.
Nigma and LGD are looking like the best teams, but what they're doing is the standard of a fucking major tournament. All other games look so underwhelming.
This is the most disappointing tournament I've seen since those ESL best of ONE that VP used to win all the time.
Don't award DPC points at regional leagues also and we good!
I'm wondering in retrospective why did this happen in the first place. Like, if you put all the actual negatives aside, you could argue that regionals are some kind of a qualifier and it puts more weight on them if they seed you into the major.
But at the same time, for most of the teams they are worth more DPC points than a major. Isn't that enough?
3/4 teams who left today were seeded into play-offs.
If No-Ping loses to EG (likely, imo, sorry SA guys), then it'll be 4/4.
At this point, it seems that you would rather WANT to throw the finals of your region in order to play in group stage.
Feels like the upper bracket teams are not really conditioned to play.
It looks like it will be 4 of the "top 6" teams (regional winners) going home without winning a single series and gaining any momentum, and the other 2 that are still in would quite likely had the same result if they faced any of the teams that played in the group stage.
Surely this is proof that momentum plays such a big role in this and just being given an opportunity to see what works and doesn't work on the big stage.
I like the idea of a group stage for the regional winners, maybe something like the top 4 goes to UB and the other 2 to LB, and this would also give the teams fighting so hard in the current "group stage" 2 more UB tickets making it quite an even battle?
Give them a starting handicap of 2 games in the group's instead. Still have the he playins, but make that a 50/50 shot.
Then roll bo3's after seeding the group stage.
Makes 0 sense to have the top team not play, even as spectators I want my team to play, surely you'd want the winning teams to play more games to draw a crowd?
Jordan from the NBA famously would play, always because he knew the fans and as there to see him. No-one wants to pay money/time for seeing the 3rd tier teams. And if the seeded teams aren't winning, we still end up with a better product, as the cream will rise to the top.
Do scrims counts? Like Team Aster said that their scrim results were bad and the result was not that also good on their official match. Also when TNC said that thay have a good scrim result against Nigma.
All top seeds went 1-4 and are out.
I quite agree with this. If all the ub teams lost twice in a row (qc was playing another ub team) that means there is something wrong with the format.
I love the cringe losers interview. I remember we had that shit at one of the TI's before.
Well to me there's two questions.
1) DPC region winners are underperforming. Should they not deserve an advantage?
2) Group stage players are playing better. Does the fact that you have to play group stage help you discover the meta more effectively?
Yes, there should be at least a group stage for them to eliminate at least 2 teams to group stage. Remove the wild card slot (since not all region has it) and put them all straight to group stage.
T1 and QC was successful with it.
Could they maybe do a tiered Group stage instead - where the playoff winners also play against each other for seeding?
I don't mind the idea of having UB and LB based on regional qualifiers, however, it has clearly been detrimental this major by not let teams practice before playing critical BO3's.
I did some simulations with Only Major DPC points. These top 12 are much better imo.
|Team|Singapore Major|AniMajor\*|Current|Only Major|
Remove the regional garbage altogether.
None of the upper bracket losers survived lower bracket kek
Or maybe start them with a free couple wins in group stage or something.
Agree shouldve make the 1st and 2nd team in region go to group stage (the 1st winners get more points and prizes) and the 3rd place go to wild card FOR EVERY REGION!
One would expect the top tier teams from regions to fight a lot of games in the main tourney for the win but they just stay inactive until two playoff games which decide their stay in the tourney. Meanwhile lower placed regional teams actually get to play dota in wildcard games and group stage... What a joke this format is. Even winning from play offs is underwhelming. Win a few play off games and you are in finals..
You forget what happened in Singapore magjor
It could work for the teams too. NoPing looked like they just needed the warm up. The one that lost 2-1 today, put up a much better fight.
Look at spirit too. Very bad during the start but look at them now, taking games off VP, Liquid and Alliance in a masterclass fashion.
But then what would be the point of winning the dpc season.... Also all the teams skrim....
That is more of the core issue. Mixing league play and tournament play is hard to mesh, which is why we don't see it very often in other sports (Besides the weird American Play-off thingies).
Regional qualifiers shud be given lesser points and this major format is just lame.
It is incredible that only 2 playoff teams are remaining in the playoffs after Day 2.... Not to mention, neither are from a powerful region! EU and China both lost their playoff teams lol.
I think they should do 2 passes of the wildcard. This way we get to see everyone playing against everyone (for the team and for us spectators). Almost everyone, anyways.
If its too much game then just make them BO1.
Exactly my idea. Let 4 teams from group stage go to upper bracket and 4 from the first placed.
Vavle is a great company but somehow the people in Dota department make the worst decision ever.... Like.... they have no idea how Dota works, their job is to make plan and management but doesn't understand the game.
I miss groups tbh. 3 groups, each group has 6 teams, round robin system (each group has two of the regional winners, the rest also can be decided by lots/dpc points). Top 3 from each group move on to the playoffs. The problem of "not getting enough games" is mitigated. But the cons is the regional winners won't have much advantages going into the major (beside from DPC points, ofc), but I think that's okay.
Then whats the point of winning the season then?
DPC points? The fuck is this